2253 replies to this topic

[Dr. Jimmmah!]

Does anyone really think the alliance between the manfs. will remain as strong when they're racing against each other?

How much mud was thrown around over the double-diffuser? I have a feeling it will get pretty damn ugly... Oh how I wish we were talking about double-diffusers again

Are then not already doing this? I mean sure the Brawns are running away with it, but the teams are still there to race...

[More&Faster]

[Redliner]

Are then not already doing this? I mean sure the Brawns are running away with it, but the teams are still there to race...

It's easy to say that right now - everyone is united against Mosley, sure. But what about afterwards? We're talking about car companies running the show, each with their own agenda...I don't know how united they will remain. Esp with Renault and Toyota. This might be their reasoning to pull out shortly after they breakaway citing that the sport no longer meets their marketing needs. It's no secret that both of them have wanted to pull out in the past...

img:http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/friday-damn.jpg:img

motorrrrrrrrrrboat!

[Nacho]

yessssssssssssssssssss

[Nacho]

Does anyone really think the alliance between the manfs. will remain as strong when they're racing against each other?

How much mud was thrown around over the double-diffuser? I have a feeling it will get pretty damn ugly... Oh how I wish we were talking about double-diffusers again

It'll be a business at that point.

And the alternative is getting EFFED by Bernie.

[Robert]

Simple but interesting take on losing the Manufacturers

Formula One to feel the pinch if teams break away

SILVERSTONE, England (Reuters) - Teams will take more than $2 billion of annual investment with them if they leave the FIA Formula One championship and set up their own series, according to industry monitor Formula Money.

BMW-Sauber, Brawn, Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, Red Bull and Toro Rosso and Toyota announced on Thursday that they would start preparations for their own championship after a row over the 2010 rules laid down by the governing International Automobile Federation.

Formula Money calculated that the eight teams accounted for 47 percent of Formula One's total revenue generation in 2008 through sponsorship, supplier deals and team owner contributions.

Of the total $2.2 billion, $667 million was in the form of sponsorship revenues.

The report said Formula One could expect the crisis to have an immediate effect with fans less likely to book advance tickets for next year.

"This could make it more difficult for race promoters to pay F1's hosting fees which average $23.7 million per race," it added.

Television stations are also likely to want to renegotiate their contracts, or could even terminate them, if the likes of Ferrari are no longer competing in the officially-sanctioned championship.

"These teams also spend huge amounts on F1's corporate hospitality and on trackside advertising so their departure will further impact F1's revenue stream," said Formula Money, which said the sport needed around $550 million in annual revenues to meet its costs and liabilities.

[Robert]

Mad Max Mosley
The Man Who Killed Formula One

well done Max
it wasn't always easy and at times you probably became frustrated when you were so close....

[MrHahn]

So what happens once Max steps down from the head of FIA - will F1 just re-assemble? Seems like this break away will be a tempory fix that will possibly not get off the ground

[DrDickAction]

It'll be a business at that point.

And the alternative is getting EFFED by Bernie.

We forget that if this breakaway series does well, it'll end up being a profit source for many of the manufacturers, of course they will be committed to the series.

[_R_]

A couple things everyone keeps talking about...

in the past... oh... 5 years... what technology has F1 brought? I mean seriously think about this... since 2004 it's been a de-tune fest...
after the V10, 22k rpm, crazy aero, what really has F1, the most technological motorsport, really done to advance stuff? if this is the best of the best, why 5 years on are we just getting close to the lap times from 2004?

we've gone to V8, lower rev limit, limited aero...
oh, we have slicks now... nothing new
moveable aero... again, back in what the 80's they had ground effects... nothing new
KERS!!!! - that's a joke, ChampCar has had press to pass since forever...

honestly, the only real advancement in any sort of racing in the past decade has come from Audi with the diesels, and that's because they got bored of winning everything... no one has thought outside of the box except them in a long while...

moving on to the whole "F-Zero will be the best of the best"...

great... where are they going to get the money?
Think about that one... now that the major teams have left F1, what is the draw for big sponsors in F1... Monaco has said that if Ferrari isn't on the grid, there will be no F1 race in Monaco...

and what draw do sponsors have to sport all these new teams? and do you really think FOM/FIA will be able to sell the same amount of tickets for the same price to F1 fans if there are no major teams? so it goes back to, less spectators, will mean less sponsorship for tracks and teams and all that...

Then you think about oh, the 8 teams will go off and start a new series... great... what company would sponsor a new team in that? they have no guarantee of any return... with F1 you know hundreds of millions of people will be watching every race... can the F-Zero teams guarantee that? can they say, yeah, we'll have hundreds of millions of people watching every race from around the globe.... which then goes back to, who's going to sponsor the track/events/teams?

starting a new series and getting all that off the ground is going to be a huge money loss the first couple seasons... with all the banks and car manufactures not doing well... who in their right mind would float that bill with no certainty that in 5 seasons they'll recoup the costs assuming F-Zero survives?

oh and what if Bernie/FOM start suing the shit out of everyone... anyone want to float that bill?

[DrDickAction]

A couple things everyone keeps talking about...

in the past... oh... 5 years... what technology has F1 brought? I mean seriously think about this... since 2004 it's been a de-tune fest...
after the V10, 22k rpm, crazy aero, what really has F1, the most technological motorsport, really done to advance stuff?

we've gone to V8, lower rev limit, limited aero...
oh, we have slicks now... nothing new
moveable aero... again, back in what the 80's they had ground effects... nothing new
KERS!!!! - that's a joke, ChampCar has had press to pass since forever...

honestly, the only real advancement in any sort of racing in the past decade has come from Audi with the diesels, and that's because they got bored of winning everything... no one has thought outside of the box except them in a long while...

moving on to the whole "F-Zero will be the best of the best"...

great... where are they going to get the money?
Think about that one... now that the major teams have left F1, what is the draw for big sponsors in F1... Monaco has said that if Ferrari isn't on the grid, there will be no F1 race in Monaco...
and what draw do sponsors have to sport all these new teams? and do you really think FOM/FIA will be able to sell the same amount of tickets for the same price to F1 fans if there are no major teams? so it goes back to, less spectators, will mean less sponsorship for tracks and teams and all that...

Then you think about oh, the 8 teams will go off and start a new series... great... what company would sponsor a new team in that? they have no guarantee of any return... with F1 you know hundreds of millions of people will be watching every race... can the F-Zero teams guarantee that? can they say, yeah, we'll have hundreds of millions of people watching every race from around the globe.... which then goes back to, who's going to sponsor the track/events/teams?

starting a new series and getting all that off the ground is going to be a huge money loss the first couple seasons... with all the banks and car manufactures not doing well... who in their right mind would float that bill with no certainty that in 5 seasons they'll recoup the costs assuming F-Zero survives?

You don't start a business and expect it to be profitable right away.


That being said, have any of the manufacturer's outfits been profitable over the past 5 years. Ferrari and maybe macca, for everyone else it's a promotional expense.

The breakaway offers a lot of risk, but 3 big upsides...ability to keep 50% of the revenue that was skimmed off by bernie, a say in the technical regulations, and the possibility that you can make the series more fan friendly, more accessible, and eventually more popular.

[DrDickAction]

Let's say they have a budget cap of 150-200 million for the first 3 years...Most of the teams could pay that, sink another 100 million into whatever promotional and organizational expenses incurred by F-Zero, and still be less of a money sink than last year.

[_R_]

You don't start a business and expect it to be profitable right away.

That being said, have any of the manufacturer's outfits been profitable over the past 5 years. Ferrari and maybe macca, for everyone else it's a promotional expense.

The breakaway offers a lot of risk, but 3 big upsides...ability to keep 50% of the revenue that was skimmed off by bernie, a say in the technical regulations, and the possibility that you can make the series more fan friendly, more accessible, and eventually more popular.

exactly my point... if this was 2003 and they wanted to do a break away, I'm sure they could find the money...
in today's world economy, where is that money going to come from? right now the teams are pissed they aren't getting more money, with the break away, they have no money coming in at all, because oh look, new series, no money pot, and they have to spend probably hundreds of millions more on top of their budget to get the ball rolling...

[DrDickAction]

official FOTA site btw:

http://www.teamsassociation.org/

[DrDickAction]

exactly my point... if this was 2003 and they wanted to do a break away, I'm sure they could find the money...
in today's world economy, where is that money going to come from? right now the teams are pissed they aren't getting more money, with the break away, they have no money coming in at all, because oh look, new series, no money pot, and they have to spend probably hundreds of millions more on top of their budget to get the ball rolling...

Who knows, maybe they're hoping Max willk flinch...maybe they're just trying to out-fuckstick King Fuckstick himself.

My gut just tells me that there is a genuine shot here to remove 2 cancers from f1 and restore the essence at the same time. Even if the name changes.

[shallow777]

To get around contractual obligations could/would Ferrari field a really crappy half ass team in F1 using the standard cosworth engine and other parts with their test drivers. Even change the color of the cars so everyone knows its not the real Ferrari. Then field a real effort in the breakaway series?


I think the biggest challenge with the new series is getting television coverage, especially in the US. Can Speed/Fox afford to shell out more money to broadcast the new series when they are already signed up to televise F1. Would another network even care to pay to televise the new series?

I am hoping someone blinks in this game of chicken pretty soon.

[DrDickAction]

FIA 'not surprised' by FOTA breakaway

In response to the Formula One Teams Association, the FIA has stated that it is disappointed but unsurprised by the teams' decision to organise a breakaway series. As this leaves a lot of places on the grid, new entrants will be accepted and a revised list published tomorrow.

"The FIA is disappointed but not surprised by FOTA’s inability to reach a compromise in the best interests of the sport. It is clear that elements within FOTA have sought this outcome throughout the prolonged period of negotiation and have not engaged in the discussions in good faith."

"The FIA cannot permit a financial arms race in the Championship nor can the FIA allow FOTA to dictate the rules of Formula One."

"The deadline for unconditional entries to the 2010 FIA Formula World Championship will expire this evening."

nor can the FIA allow FOTA to dictate the rules of Formula One."

Jesus fucking christ...why not? They're the ones footing the fucking bill, they should have a fucking say.

[_R_]

my guess...
After FIA/FOM releases the official list tomorrow of the 2010 teams... they'll get a shit storm of sponsors/tv rights/tracks/teams wanting to pull out or re-negotiate their deals

only way F1 will be the F1 as we know it...
Mosley will be forced to step down, a new concorde agreement will have to be signed, realistic budget cap, more money for the teams, FIA gets reworked, all the teams come back...

[DrDickAction]

my guess...
After FIA/FOM releases the official list tomorrow of the 2010 teams... they'll get a shit storm of sponsors/tv rights/tracks/teams wanting to pull out or re-negotiate their deals

only way F1 will be the F1 as we know it...
Mosley will be forced to step down, a new concorde agreement will have to be signed, realistic budget cap, more money for the teams, FIA gets reworked, all the teams come back...

They've delayed the release of the entrants list btw.

If mosley steps down and a new concorde agreement is created that allows the teams a vote or say in the technical regs, then by all means, lets have f1 next year.

But, Mosley is way too big of a nob to let reason and doing his job well come before his ego.

[Redliner]

They've delayed the release of the entrants list btw.

If mosley steps down and a new concorde agreement is created that allows the teams a vote or say in the technical regs, then by all means, lets have f1 next year.

But, Mosley is way too big of a nob to let reason and doing his job well come before his ego.

Ive agreed with everything raider has said. Sure its easy to say that they can mount a realistic breakaway, but with current tv, track, and promotional contracts tied to FOM, i just dont see how

and where is the money going to come from? The best bet is really for maxey to step down, but this wont happen. It is one thing to have a few teams be unhappy with the way things are, but this is basically the entire grid. But he is too dense to realize the fact that he is a fucktard.

[Dr. Jimmmah!]

Honestly my point of view is I'm rooting for FOTA1 to work and for people to support a new series rather than FOTA/F1 to reconciliate at this point. Let me explain why:


If F1/FOTA resolve their quams about the budget/2-tier system and go back together, we (N. America) are still left without a race, and ticket prices will still be extortionately expensive (remember what we were paying for at IMS was a giant bargain compared to the rest of the world). By forming a new series we have a chance of removing the two key figures that have been plaguing F1, Max and Bernie. This is probably the closest shot we have of getting a race back in N. America in the near future.

Hopefully these guys have the foresight to recognize that the President of any organization needs to be elected and have to have re-elections/maximum term lengths. Also, since a large portion of the manufacturers target market for sales will be North America it could mean no more 'odd hours' races such as twilight races just to cater an European audience when this is a World Championship.

By starting from scratch they can move forward into the 21st century on the broadcast/publicity front instead of antiquated technology/ideologies that Bernie seems to be so unwilling to part with, such as Hi-Def broadcasts and more access for fans without charging for ridiculously expensive 'Paddock club' passes, subscription-based online access to race feeds, etc.

And of course without money grubbing Bernie deciding which government will pay him more to have the F1 brand in their country we might actually get to see some racing circuits being chosen because they offer better racing action, rather than endless street parade after another (Monaco, Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and Rome expect to be featured on the F1 calender by 2011. There is NO NEED for six street circuits in a season).

Even if it takes a year for this series to take off, the prospect of a manufacturer-run series, where their interests in showing off their brand to the public and creating a spectacle are placed over two individuals who are in it for a) Power, b) Money, would be a benefit to the fan in the end of the day. It's not that long ago that many of you guys said you'd be willing to wait a year without F1 if it were to fix F1 for the long term...

[Ximian]

Then we have other famous track that use to be in F1 but are not currently on the calendar, but are probably safe enough and ready enough to host a race.
Jerez
A1 ring

I am pretty sure I read about A1 Ring being demolished a few years ago.

According to the wiki, the grandstands were demolished so it would be unsuable for the short term. Red Bull owns it so it would definitely be possible to see it soon. I'm sure they would want a home race.

http://en.wikipedia....Österreichring

[Ximian]

Honestly my point of view is I'm rooting for FOTA1 to work and for people to support a new series rather than FOTA/F1 to reconciliate at this point. Let me explain why:


If F1/FOTA resolve their quams about the budget/2-tier system and go back together, we (N. America) are still left without a race, and ticket prices will still be extortionately expensive (remember what we were paying for at IMS was a giant bargain compared to the rest of the world). By forming a new series we have a chance of removing the two key figures that have been plaguing F1, Max and Bernie. This is probably the closest shot we have of getting a race back in N. America in the near future.

Hopefully these guys have the foresight to recognize that the President of any organization needs to be elected and have to have re-elections/maximum term lengths. Also, since a large portion of the manufacturers target market for sales will be North America it could mean no more 'odd hours' races such as twilight races just to cater an European audience when this is a World Championship.

By starting from scratch they can move forward into the 21st century on the broadcast/publicity front instead of antiquated technology/ideologies that Bernie seems to be so unwilling to part with, such as Hi-Def broadcasts and more access for fans without charging for ridiculously expensive 'Paddock club' passes, subscription-based online access to race feeds, etc.

And of course without money grubbing Bernie deciding which government will pay him more to have the F1 brand in their country we might actually get to see some racing circuits being chosen because they offer better racing action, rather than endless street parade after another (Monaco, Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea and Rome expect to be featured on the F1 calender by 2011. There is NO NEED for six street circuits in a season).

Even if it takes a year for this series to take off, the prospect of a manufacturer-run series, where their interests in showing off their brand to the public and creating a spectacle are placed over two individuals who are in it for a) Power, b) Money, would be a benefit to the fan in the end of the day. It's not that long ago that many of you guys said you'd be willing to wait a year without F1 if it were to fix F1 for the long term...

The other bonus is that FOM will lose customers because all of the big teams have left and nobody would go see the races, so the tracks will want to cancel their contracts. A few more months and the Formula 1 brand will have no value and the company that owns it will want to sell it. FOTA steps in, buys it and we're back to where we were but without the two bad elements.

[_R_]

They've delayed the release of the entrants list btw.

FIA realizes their bluff has been called... they know F1 will tank without the 8 teams...
they wouldn't delay the release of the list if they thought everything would be fine and peachy without the FOTA 8 teams...

If F1/FOTA resolve their quams about the budget/2-tier system and go back together, we (N. America) are still left without a race, and ticket prices will still be extortionately expensive (remember what we were paying for at IMS was a giant bargain compared to the rest of the world). By forming a new series we have a chance of removing the two key figures that have been plaguing F1, Max and Bernie. This is probably the closest shot we have of getting a race back in N. America in the near future.

the minor flaw is that is N.America doesn't care much about open wheeled racing or circuit racing... Europe is the main source of $$$...

[Dr. Jimmmah!]

The other bonus is that FOM will lose customers because all of the big teams have left and nobody would go see the races, so the tracks will want to cancel their contracts. A few more months and the Formula 1 brand will have no value and the company that owns it will want to sell it. FOTA steps in, buys it and we're back to where we were but without the two bad elements.

In an ideal world I could see the FOTA owning the F1 trademark..