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2013 Formula 1 Season Thread


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#1 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Forgot to start one this year.



http://www.crash.net...or_winning.html
How long till they put up a wall in the garage Rossi-Lorenzo style?

#2 Redliner

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:30 PM

Forgot to start one this year.



http://www.crash.net...or_winning.html
How long till they put up a wall in the garage Rossi-Lorenzo style?


Some in the RB camp will be loyal to Webber, others to Vettel. This doesn't help the team out at all one bit...

#3 _R_

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:53 PM

Still stupid in my view...
A) Let's swap out Webbers car with a McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus/Merc... with 13 laps left after the final pit stop and Vettel was 4 second behind, you think anyone at RB would be telling Vettel to conserve his tires and turn down the engine to save fuel? Fuck no. They'd be telling him to push like hell...

B) '07 the chip was won by 1 point, '08 was won by 1 point, '09 was 11 points, '10 was 4 points, '12 was 3 points... you think a 3 time champ is going to sit back and hand 7 points to his teammate who has no chance of winning a title? that is also fucking stupid...

#4 Redliner

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:50 PM

Still stupid in my view...
A) Let's swap out Webbers car with a McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus/Merc... with 13 laps left after the final pit stop and Vettel was 4 second behind, you think anyone at RB would be telling Vettel to conserve his tires and turn down the engine to save fuel? Fuck no. They'd be telling him to push like hell...

B) '07 the chip was won by 1 point, '08 was won by 1 point, '09 was 11 points, '10 was 4 points, '12 was 3 points... you think a 3 time champ is going to sit back and hand 7 points to his teammate who has no chance of winning a title? that is also fucking stupid...


A) Of course not; the first scenario doesn't have your team up front. From the team's persepctive, they're trying to get as many points as possible so of course they'd push. But since it was Webber's car up there, it's worse for the 2 to go racing, then knocking themselves both out, leaving the team with zero points.

B) Again, it goes back to my first point. Remember, the teams don't care about the WDC, they care about the constructor's points. That's what brings in the bacon, not the WDC points. That's for personal glory...Both cars wrecking themselves racing each other would've brought home no points, therefore no money earned for the team... And that is why Vettel is being hung out to dry. He put his personal glory over the need of the team first. Granted, Webber would've done the same - and he would've gotten the same shit storm.

What McLaren does is a dinosaur in this day and age and I won't be surprised that they'll soon start implementing team orders.

#5 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:41 AM

A) Of course not; the first scenario doesn't have your team up front. From the team's persepctive, they're trying to get as many points as possible so of course they'd push. But since it was Webber's car up there, it's worse for the 2 to go racing, then knocking themselves both out, leaving the team with zero points.

B) Again, it goes back to my first point. Remember, the teams don't care about the WDC, they care about the constructor's points. That's what brings in the bacon, not the WDC points. That's for personal glory...Both cars wrecking themselves racing each other would've brought home no points, therefore no money earned for the team... And that is why Vettel is being hung out to dry. He put his personal glory over the need of the team first. Granted, Webber would've done the same - and he would've gotten the same shit storm.

What McLaren does is a dinosaur in this day and age and I won't be surprised that they'll soon start implementing team orders.

I think it is stupid too, but wouldn't be surprised if now Webber makes it difficult as hell for Vettel to pass and starts only looking out for himself.

In the ideal world this is true, but sure is easier to market a car with that #1 on it. Also, you hear about the team bosses bragging about "double championships" because they care about that and know having the championship driver and car means more sponsorship money.

#6 Redliner

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:57 AM

I think it is stupid too, but wouldn't be surprised if now Webber makes it difficult as hell for Vettel to pass and starts only looking out for himself.

In the ideal world this is true, but sure is easier to market a car with that #1 on it. Also, you hear about the team bosses bragging about "double championships" because they care about that and know having the championship driver and car means more sponsorship money.


To be fair, Webber has always only looked out for himself so it's a moot point. In fact, if that were Webber behind, Webber would've attacked hard too. So all's game in modern F1.

For sure, but it's riskier to have a two cars race to the end to knock one, the other, or both out of the race. Then who's the idiot? And knowing these 2, it's very possible...if you look at it from a team's position it makes sense. In the end, the WDC is still only bragging rights that could potentially bring in money vs cold hard cash guaranteed by each point earned by finishing a race.

Stupid? It's that or have a ban on team orders again...and we all know how stupid that looks too.

#7 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:08 AM

To be fair, Webber has always only looked out for himself so it's a moot point. In fact, if that were Webber behind, Webber would've attacked hard too. So all's game in modern F1.

For sure, but it's riskier to have a two cars race to the end to knock one, the other, or both out of the race. Then who's the idiot? And knowing these 2, it's very possible...if you look at it from a team's position it makes sense. In the end, the WDC is still only bragging rights that could potentially bring in money vs cold hard cash guaranteed by each point earned by finishing a race.

Stupid? It's that or have a ban on team orders again...and we all know how stupid that looks too.

I don't have problems with team orders, being a tifoso I'm OK with it being for the better of the team, but there needs to be a de-facto number one. None of this public "we let our drivers race" bullshit but secretly having a number one without telling number two.

#8 _R_

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:07 AM

How long till they put up a wall in the garage Rossi-Lorenzo style?

What McLaren does is a dinosaur in this day and age and I won't be surprised that they'll soon start implementing team orders.


Going back to Jimmy's original post, look at MotoGP, you think they have team orders? nope, the guys are duking it out to the very end... see Catalunya 2009 Rossi vs Lorenzo, one of the best finishes to a race in the modern era and they were on the same team... They won the triple title (rider/team/make) basically 3 years in the row...

The Turkey incident shouldn't have happened, these guys are in F1, you race hard but you're not supposed to take someone out, especially your teammate... that was bone headed and a rookie mistake that shouldn't have ever happened in the first place...

Catalunya 2009


#9 Redliner

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

Going back to Jimmy's original post, look at MotoGP, you think they have team orders? nope, the guys are duking it out to the very end... see Catalunya 2009 Rossi vs Lorenzo, one of the best finishes to a race in the modern era and they were on the same team... They won the triple title (rider/team/make) basically 3 years in the row...

The Turkey incident shouldn't have happened, these guys are in F1, you race hard but you're not supposed to take someone out, especially your teammate... that was bone headed and a rookie mistake that shouldn't have ever happened in the first place...

Catalunya 2009


They also don't have radios on board telling them to hold position...a lot harder to argue with a pitboard when you can't talk back.

The other part of it is that motorcycle racers have a little more respect for each other because their chances of death is greater than that in F1 nowadays. Safety for better or worse has made it easier to run into each other a'la Senna/MS and get away with it. Back in the old days, they raced each other fairly without going overboard, because if you screwed up, there was a good chance you're both dead.

Let me put it differently: Hayden vs Pedrosa...remember when Pedrosa knocked Hayden off his bike which basically ended Hayden's title chances?

I do agree that in a perfect world, these guys should be able to race each other hard without running into each other...we'd also have a million bucks and a McLaren F1 in our garage ;)

#10 _R_

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

They also don't have radios on board telling them to hold position...a lot harder to argue with a pitboard when you can't talk back.
Let me put it differently: Hayden vs Pedrosa...remember when Pedrosa knocked Hayden off his bike which basically ended Hayden's title chances?


A) Still have pit boards to communicate, you can ignore it much like the radio....
B) Hayden still won the title that year :o

The only time where I'll agree with team orders is if it's coming down to that last few races and one teammate doesn't stand a chance at winning, while the other one does... but making a call during the 2nd race of the year is stupid...

#11 DrDickAction

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

Clearly arguments for each side.

I think where the flaw in the win at all costs model is

a) It's not that big a departure to taking the alonso 10 second break in q3 to hose your teammates quali lap. True, a late-race pass isn't overt sabotage of your teammate, but it is overt sabotage of your team.

b) Vettel would clearly be angry if webber did the same to him. He'd be up on that god damn podium sulking worse than vettel, and shortly thereafter be asking uncle marko to beat up webbo for him.

I cannot wait to see Seb paired with another top tier driver - alonso, kimi, lewis - and just implode mentally. Hopefully he comes out of it better off like Alonso, but I'm gonna enjoy all of the cheap tricks, excuses, and desperation in the middle of it.

#12 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:51 PM

but making a call during the 2nd race of the year is stupid...

Exactly what Jenson said.

I would understand if I couldn't win the championship anymore and the team said to me 'Right, if you're leading this race and your team-mate is second and needs the points to win the championship' then I would let him past. I wouldn't even need to be told that. I would do it myself because it's the right thing to do, but in the second race of the season I don't think it's the right thing to do.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/292923/button-surprised-by-vettel-s-approach/


The teams DO care about the WDC even if it doesn't change the WCC payout.

Thing is if you agree pre-race on something then stick to it. It's not a question of team orders, but integrity. Seb agreed to "Multi 21" but then decided to back out of his agreement with the team. If he had a problem with "Multi 21", the time to throw up a stink was during their private meeting, not to break the agreement and claim he misunderstood or that "Webber didn't deserve to win".

if you're told to hold station and you know that's the rule before the race then kick up about it before the race, don't just do the opposite in the race. I think that's the biggest issue. If we had that issue here, I wouldn't have agreed before we went racing. In the race, you have to do as you're supposed to do.



#13 Redliner

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

Exactly what Jenson said.


http://www.gpupdate....tel-s-approach/


The teams DO care about the WDC even if it doesn't change the WCC payout.

Thing is if you agree pre-race on something then stick to it. It's not a question of team orders, but integrity. Seb agreed to "Multi 21" but then decided to back out of his agreement with the team. If he had a problem with "Multi 21", the time to throw up a stink was during their private meeting, not to break the agreement and claim he misunderstood or that "Webber didn't deserve to win".


I think that's true. That's put pretty well - if you have an agreement before the race, you need to stick to it. And if you disagree with it, then don't come into that discussion in the first place. I didn't even think about it that way.

My memories are going on me, but still...my point kind of remains on that one, lol. They knocked each other out. I think racing would be more fun if you didn't have team radios though. It's a lot easier to ignore the pitboards than it is to have a direct discussion with your team boss over the radio.

Anyways, I think Vettel still was pretty selfish about the entire thing, but I'm in no way under an illusion that Webber would've followed "Multi-21" if the positions were reversed. BTW, I read that "21" refers to driver order by championship points (which in turn means team leader/2nd). 2 being Webber, 1 being Vettel. If it were Vettel in front, it would've been Multi-12. Just food for thought.

#14 chiuey

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:06 AM

I think that's true. That's put pretty well - if you have an agreement before the race, you need to stick to it. And if you disagree with it, then don't come into that discussion in the first place. I didn't even think about it that way.


I totally agree. Look at Mika and DC back in their days with McLaren. Even though Mika was the de facto #1, he was never above helping the team when it was required. No doubt he wanted to win, but when asked, he would still help DC even if he was uncomfortable with it.



#15 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

These guys are making plans to make sure Vettel doesn't win the WDC this year :mamoru:

https://twitter.com/...0833024/photo/1

#16 Redliner

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:15 PM

These guys are making plans to make sure Vettel doesn't win the WDC this year :mamoru:

https://twitter.com/...0833024/photo/1


:rofl:

#17 vietlol

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:46 AM

Who is their third, Hambo?

#18 DrDickAction

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:18 PM

Who is their third, Hambo?


Jaime Alguersari



#19 Redliner

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

http://blogs.espnf1....n_a_promise.php

An interesting article about Todt as President of the FIA. I wholly agree with it too and think he has done a phenomenal job so far. Not once have I heard myself crying "Todt's a fucking idiot" like I did about Nazi Sex Machine Max Mosley.

#20 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

Slightly off topic, but did anyone else catch the last 20 laps of the Indycar race at Sao Paulo? :bowdown:

#21 _R_

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:18 PM

According to crash.net, rumor is webber is retiring at the end of the year :eek3:

#22 DrDickAction

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:18 AM

http://blogs.espnf1....n_a_promise.php

An interesting article about Todt as President of the FIA. I wholly agree with it too and think he has done a phenomenal job so far. Not once have I heard myself crying "Todt's a fucking idiot" like I did about Nazi Sex Machine Max Mosley.


Not cancelling bahrain all together is the only thing I think he's fucked up on; and that has little-to-nothing to do with the cars on the track.

#23 Redliner

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

According to crash.net, rumor is webber is retiring at the end of the year :eek3:


He doesn't want to drive for RB anymore, but RB is a top flight team. And he's too old to jump to another top team...he knows his days are numbered. If it weren't for the Multi 21 escapade, he'd probably do another year at RB for sure.

#24 DrDickAction

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:55 PM

I can't imagine webbo swallowing his pride for another year. He can demand any drive he wants in LMS, so I'm sure he's thinking Felipe's seat or nothing.

#25 Dr. Jimmmah!

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:34 PM

I can't imagine webbo swallowing his pride for another year. He can demand any drive he wants in LMS, so I'm sure he's thinking Felipe's seat or nothing.

Nothing to indicate he would be an improvement over Felipe at Ferrari. On top of that, Felipe has time and time again shown loyalty to Ferrari, whereas it would be likely Webber would not take a job requiring a supporting role again.




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